I was undecided on whether to respond to Chris Lanier’s post where he basically says Microsoft have ditched Media Center as a platform and its now just about just watching TV on a PC but I thought I would with a bit of rambling, (if anybody would like to respond on the podcast please get in touch)
Chris has some interesting points and its great he reminds Microsoft our passion for the product but I do think he is wrong, Media Center is still a platform and with Windows 7 it gets extended even more. Chris said that Media Center was missing from the keynote, which were my thoughts while live blogging the keynote however when I watched it back later I could see that while the UI didn’t get a demo Windows Media Center was show as one of the three ways of connecting to Windows or “the three screen of Windows” as Microsoft call it ,the others being the PC and mobile devices (not very much new stuff got shown in the keynote, there was to much XBox and Tripod in it for me). So not being shown in the keynote was not a sign of the platform being killed is was just a keynote that didn’t seem to show very much ( I know of other demos that were cut)
Two other indicator Chris points out is the emphasis on touch and clickable seek bar. The seekbar is an obvious thing to include and lots of enthusiasts have requested that feature so I don’t see that as an issue. As for touch, Windows Media Center is best placed to take advantage of touch due to amount of work done to make Media Center work from 10 feet and a simple remote. Media Center is the best way to use touch in Windows 7, it works much better than an application like Windows Media Player. I use a HP TouchSmart as a server for my Extender and do use the Media Center UI on it to search for recordings and play music, scehdule recordings etc so I want touch building in to Media Center.
The Extender story at CES was disappointing, there were no Extenders on show except for Toshiba’s prototype unit and the Xbox 360. The problem is the dedicated Extenders can’t compete with the Xbox 360 on price or features, I know people complain about the noise but for most people the Xbox is a very good Extender and even some very high end installs are rack mounting 360’s as Extenders. I am not sure what to make of Toshiba’s announcement, maybe the Extender being built in to a TV is a way of competing with the 360 but we will have to wait and see what Toshiba do with it.
Other features of Windows 7 really help the Media Center platform: Play To is a great feature, from any Windows 7 PC play a media file on any other Windows 7 PC or DLNA device and where Media Center fits in to this is to Play To a Xbox 360, you have to have the Extender session running, so Media Center is vital in making that work. So from my netbook I can right click on any media file and play to my TV and the media file doesn’t have to be on my netbook, you can stream from PC a to PC b from PC c and so on. Another feature I am going to use is HomeGroup, this adds media sharing between Windows 7 machines, I can go in to my laptop (in Media Center) and look at recorded TV on my Media Center server and then I can either stream the file or select Copy and Media Center will copy the file to my laptop and I can take it with me.
The other point about Media Center is that its a fantastic DVR and with the changes to the BDA driver model OEMs can make there own TV tuner drivers without the need for Microsoft’s assistants, whether we will see more tuners I don’t know but at least the option is there.
As for the focus on CEDIA, I am not sure this is a good or bad thing, its good if it driver features but bad if the features don’t get pushed back down to consumers, so again we will have to wait and see on that.
Back on the subject of CES, Media Center had a great deal of floor space where they were showing Windows Media Center, Windows Media Center running on a Xbox 360 and Media Center running on a little netbook. There was always a big crowd around the display where as at the Xbox and Media Room display there was not much interest (non that I could see at Media Room)
There are a lot of things Microsoft need to do to improve the platform, “Play To” needs to be an option from Media Center not just WMP and Explorer, tuners need to be pooled and the guide data need to be pooled so you could go to the kitchen touch PC and browse the guide data on the main system (or server). We also need better internet TV integration, like Hulu and BBC iPlayer. There also needs to be Zune integration, Media Center should be a “tuner” for Zune (as should Windows Mobile), 3rd party application ecosystem is still small and needs nurturing (targeting MSDN readers would help)
One development I noticed at CES was Yahoo’s Widgets on TV, Microsoft needs to respond to that either by adding that kind of feature to Windows or by creating a platform for manufactures to incorporate in their TVs and while they are at it make it consumer content from Windows, the ease of development is going to be a big asset for Yahoo over MCML applications
One other thing to watch is where Microsoft’s consumer devices head, Windows Media Center, Windows Home Server and Zune all cross over and need integration and I am sure it’s something we will see in the future (especially Windows Media Center and Windows Home Server)
So while Chris brings up some very good points I don’t go along with what he is saying, but maybe it wishful thinking on my part we will see….
We need webguide, as that would solve some of the Guide issues, having the webguide guide for your main MCE on a remote mce via webguide would be a good thing. We have seen the IPTV stuff in the states integrate straight into the normal guide listing’s so it cannot be that hard to do.
The HomeGroup stuff needs to know more about the Recorded TV as well, and auto share that for the group to other MCE boxes, without adding it in manually.
Also have a look in reflector at the SideBar gadget, seems a lot more of MCE is ‘exposed’ to coders now, so should make life easier for these sorts of 3rd/1st party apps.
I’ve had Chris’s post open all morning trying to decide how to respond and you beat me to it. I agree that MCE isn’t dead and really, with what they’ve added in Windows 7, only needs a little bit more of a push for it to become THE whole home media system of choice.
I’m only one person and my opinion doesn’t count for much but go to my blog and read my open letter to Microsoft. They’re doing some great work with Windows 7 and it just isn’t going to take much more to lock that top spot. A lot of what Ian mentions (Zune) as well as the things showing up on on the 7MC Taskforce site are a lot of what I wrote in my post. Apparently I’m not the only person who wants them.
This post from Chris as well as a recent previous one makes me thing he’s starting to lose interest in Media Center. He’s a lot more connected to MS than I am and maybe he knows something that we don’t?
I totally agree with your paragraph on the improvements needed. I love where Media Center is at, but would love it more with these improvements.
I have one more improvement suggestion. When “Play To” gets integrated into Media Center, it would be ideal if it allows synchronization between devices. I would like to play this playlist in the Den AND in the Kitchen and have them playing in sync…. This would handle the whole Multi-Zone audio/video that enthusiasts have been been pining for.
No doubt some will see it different from me, but I love your list of improvements that need to happen (and there are several more in the TV area I’m sure you could list). I have to ask though, how long have we been asking for these improvements? I know I’ve seen the same things suggested for years and years. Features that would add stability to the platform, make it more marketable around the world, and clearly show that Media Center can be a “platform.” Sadly, years go by and most of these features are still not in the platform. Those not in Windows 7 will likely take another 2-3 years to came back up on the table. Microsoft will ask for input on the Windows 8 beta, but as anyone who has beta tested Media Center before will know they already have the feature set locked way before the beta starts and have no real intent to add any requested features.
Windows 7 adds features that should have been in Media Center (and Windows) for years. Home Group is the prime example here, but it has taken Microsoft six years to include a feature that really should have shipped with Windows XP (networking multiple PCs was very common during the XP development cycle).
My fear is simple, Microsoft has played the game with a wait and see attitude and now they are being overrun with devices that provide 80% of the functionality for 1/3 the price. Intel/Yahoo widgets, $99 network streamers, $10/month cable/sat DVRs that stream content. Microsoft can’t compete with the rest of the market who has decided the PC isn’t needed. Is that extra 20% of functionality (super slick UI, integrated TV recording, faster UI speed) enough for people to invest in Media Center? Or will people live with a more basic DLNA streamer that just gets the content on their screen without the extra features which often lead to extra fuss and endless troubleshooting with no single authority to turn to?
Intel, Sigma Designs, and Broadcom have increased their roles in the SoC market providing processors with just enough power to really give embedded devices a clean UI with PC-like functionality without the issues of a Windows-based PC.
Microsoft on the other hand continues to try and show off what the multi-core PC is capable of, leaving cheap SoC’s in the dust. The Music Wall looks great on my beta Win7 box, but I’m not looking forward to connecting my Linksys Extender (that is already slow) to Windows 7 and seeing it crawl. I see that Media Center is really being built for the desktop, and I think the vision of a connected home has taken a huge backseat.
“I use a HP TouchSmart as a server for my Extender”
Are you Serious??
This is really the only way to use the touch feature is if you use it as your primary server because the touch interface doesn’t work over extenders. I find it hard to believe that you use the HP TouchSmart as your server. Your probably one of very few that have this ability to do so.
I’m torn…..I can complete agree with Chris, that the maths just don’t add up for MCE.
Just look at these two examples:
CD…..the next stage was going to be SACD or DVD Audio…high end technology that really brought music to a new level…..but the technology adopted was MP3 at 128k or less on players that can be bought from £10 upwards.
HD-DVD / Blu Ray…….mass adoption? Not when people are happy with Divx…portability and convienance.
I’ve just set up a system, which has a dedicated PC and a single extender. For the person I’ve done it for it’s just wow though his large HD TV….but for me, the hoops I’ve gone though just to be able to get him to the stage of ripping DVD’s he owns to transcode to the 360 and keeping it simple is just plain wrong and the cost of the system is just stupid money.
With everyone else going cheaper, and people happy with a lower quality….unless your an iPod you are going to get lost in the mainstream.
BUT, if you are smart and want to carry on in a high end niche market, go after the people with the money…CEDIA..which is what M$ are doing.
So, to sum up, yes I agree with Chris and M$ have missed the MASS market, but if they continue with the custom installers, then yes Ian is correct, they still have a platform. For the enthusiasts, well we are caught in the middle, and will remain there for the foreseeable future.
@DanITman when I say I use it at a server I mean I use it as a touchsmart and it does all the recording which the Xbox 360 plays back. I use the touchsmart all the time, its not like its sat doing nothing
For anyone who has been using Media Center for sometime and they switch back to regular DVR box, right at that moment in time they realize how much they miss Media Center.
That same thing happened to me and more importantly to my wife and my 2 ½ year old boy.
Wife said where is all the music, meanwhile I have a 2 ½ year old crying because he cannot watch “Cars” or “Happy Feet”.
She really lost it when I told her the TV in bedroom will not play Music, Pictures or the family Videos.
This Media Center was only down for 1 day for an upgrade, my wife will never go back to a regular DVR box.
Jesus H Christ… Somebody please turn OFF Chris Lanier… blah, blah and blah… he is like a broken record… Give it a rest would u…Some folks think you are wrong and I personally think you are obsessing over this to the point of well, i will bite my tongue… just move on.. Go rant about LinuxMCE… Your never-ending assault is not helping anyone… It is like someone has taken over your mind and is filling it with non stop complaining… get past it. (oh can you ban me from this site also?) You are acting like that dude who invented AutoCad and when a big corporate entity took over his company, he lost it… Hmmmm… Maybe there is some meaning in that…
@Ian Dixon: I know what you meant, I still can’t believe it. You are probably one of few that use it for this purpose. Microsoft must of had you in mind when they added touch to the Media Center interface.
I think allot of the points Chris raises are valid. There is a whole industry out there regarding getting digital media content on to your TV that totally by-passes the PC and MS have been too slow and really missed the boat with the main stream.
It’s presumably easier to setup, is more reliable and much cheaper, the masses are already embrassing these products, the number of Media Streamers you see these days, these people probably don’t even know MC exists, yet they are happily watching content from the net and LAN on their TV’s.
And if MS can’t sort out all the problems, issues and feature requests we all talk about every day on TGB then it’s not looking good in the long term.
Don’t get me wrong I love Media Center but MS really need to get a move on and have a massive push to get it going forward and ahead of the game not catching up all the time, or it’s not going to happen for them.
We still have no easy way to get Internet TV content in to Media Center, sure if your in the US there’s the in built Internet TV but from what I’ve heard the content is limited and not so great.
We rely on excellent 3rd party developments like TunerFree MCE, why can’t we watch Hulu in MC for example? Hoping and waiting for some guy who knows how to code MCML to build an add-in for it. MS should be providing the tools and framework to have one MC UI for all these sources of Inernet content which can easily be added by the user and not some random developer creating yet another add-in for X Y Z content.
I’ve only been using MC since Vista, Chris has been using it since the beginning I believe and I already feel like this is being developed way too slowly, can I really see myself still here saying I hope X Y and Z is in Windows 8 MC, when I said the same things about the Windows 7 development!
Media Center in Windows 7 is mainly Vista TV Pack with a few bells and whistles and it’s not going to be enough to save it longer term, which is why it will remain a high-end and enthusiasts platform.
But if it does everything I want it too and I’m not retiring by the time all that actually happens lol then I’ll be happy and have a better system than joe public with his Media Streamer / Smart TV.
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I forgot to mention about Webguide for Live Mesh. I really hope we see that come out, the PDC demo was very cool
We need webguide, as that would solve some of the Guide issues, having the webguide guide for your main MCE on a remote mce via webguide would be a good thing. We have seen the IPTV stuff in the states integrate straight into the normal guide listing’s so it cannot be that hard to do.
The HomeGroup stuff needs to know more about the Recorded TV as well, and auto share that for the group to other MCE boxes, without adding it in manually.
Also have a look in reflector at the SideBar gadget, seems a lot more of MCE is ‘exposed’ to coders now, so should make life easier for these sorts of 3rd/1st party apps.
I’ve had Chris’s post open all morning trying to decide how to respond and you beat me to it. I agree that MCE isn’t dead and really, with what they’ve added in Windows 7, only needs a little bit more of a push for it to become THE whole home media system of choice.
I’m only one person and my opinion doesn’t count for much but go to my blog and read my open letter to Microsoft. They’re doing some great work with Windows 7 and it just isn’t going to take much more to lock that top spot. A lot of what Ian mentions (Zune) as well as the things showing up on on the 7MC Taskforce site are a lot of what I wrote in my post. Apparently I’m not the only person who wants them.
This post from Chris as well as a recent previous one makes me thing he’s starting to lose interest in Media Center. He’s a lot more connected to MS than I am and maybe he knows something that we don’t?
I totally agree with your paragraph on the improvements needed. I love where Media Center is at, but would love it more with these improvements.
I have one more improvement suggestion. When “Play To” gets integrated into Media Center, it would be ideal if it allows synchronization between devices. I would like to play this playlist in the Den AND in the Kitchen and have them playing in sync…. This would handle the whole Multi-Zone audio/video that enthusiasts have been been pining for.
Great post Ian!
No doubt some will see it different from me, but I love your list of improvements that need to happen (and there are several more in the TV area I’m sure you could list). I have to ask though, how long have we been asking for these improvements? I know I’ve seen the same things suggested for years and years. Features that would add stability to the platform, make it more marketable around the world, and clearly show that Media Center can be a “platform.” Sadly, years go by and most of these features are still not in the platform. Those not in Windows 7 will likely take another 2-3 years to came back up on the table. Microsoft will ask for input on the Windows 8 beta, but as anyone who has beta tested Media Center before will know they already have the feature set locked way before the beta starts and have no real intent to add any requested features.
Windows 7 adds features that should have been in Media Center (and Windows) for years. Home Group is the prime example here, but it has taken Microsoft six years to include a feature that really should have shipped with Windows XP (networking multiple PCs was very common during the XP development cycle).
My fear is simple, Microsoft has played the game with a wait and see attitude and now they are being overrun with devices that provide 80% of the functionality for 1/3 the price. Intel/Yahoo widgets, $99 network streamers, $10/month cable/sat DVRs that stream content. Microsoft can’t compete with the rest of the market who has decided the PC isn’t needed. Is that extra 20% of functionality (super slick UI, integrated TV recording, faster UI speed) enough for people to invest in Media Center? Or will people live with a more basic DLNA streamer that just gets the content on their screen without the extra features which often lead to extra fuss and endless troubleshooting with no single authority to turn to?
Intel, Sigma Designs, and Broadcom have increased their roles in the SoC market providing processors with just enough power to really give embedded devices a clean UI with PC-like functionality without the issues of a Windows-based PC.
Microsoft on the other hand continues to try and show off what the multi-core PC is capable of, leaving cheap SoC’s in the dust. The Music Wall looks great on my beta Win7 box, but I’m not looking forward to connecting my Linksys Extender (that is already slow) to Windows 7 and seeing it crawl. I see that Media Center is really being built for the desktop, and I think the vision of a connected home has taken a huge backseat.
“I use a HP TouchSmart as a server for my Extender”
Are you Serious??
This is really the only way to use the touch feature is if you use it as your primary server because the touch interface doesn’t work over extenders. I find it hard to believe that you use the HP TouchSmart as your server. Your probably one of very few that have this ability to do so.
I’m torn…..I can complete agree with Chris, that the maths just don’t add up for MCE.
Just look at these two examples:
CD…..the next stage was going to be SACD or DVD Audio…high end technology that really brought music to a new level…..but the technology adopted was MP3 at 128k or less on players that can be bought from £10 upwards.
HD-DVD / Blu Ray…….mass adoption? Not when people are happy with Divx…portability and convienance.
I’ve just set up a system, which has a dedicated PC and a single extender. For the person I’ve done it for it’s just wow though his large HD TV….but for me, the hoops I’ve gone though just to be able to get him to the stage of ripping DVD’s he owns to transcode to the 360 and keeping it simple is just plain wrong and the cost of the system is just stupid money.
With everyone else going cheaper, and people happy with a lower quality….unless your an iPod you are going to get lost in the mainstream.
BUT, if you are smart and want to carry on in a high end niche market, go after the people with the money…CEDIA..which is what M$ are doing.
So, to sum up, yes I agree with Chris and M$ have missed the MASS market, but if they continue with the custom installers, then yes Ian is correct, they still have a platform. For the enthusiasts, well we are caught in the middle, and will remain there for the foreseeable future.
EZ
@DanITman when I say I use it at a server I mean I use it as a touchsmart and it does all the recording which the Xbox 360 plays back. I use the touchsmart all the time, its not like its sat doing nothing
For anyone who has been using Media Center for sometime and they switch back to regular DVR box, right at that moment in time they realize how much they miss Media Center.
That same thing happened to me and more importantly to my wife and my 2 ½ year old boy.
Wife said where is all the music, meanwhile I have a 2 ½ year old crying because he cannot watch “Cars” or “Happy Feet”.
She really lost it when I told her the TV in bedroom will not play Music, Pictures or the family Videos.
This Media Center was only down for 1 day for an upgrade, my wife will never go back to a regular DVR box.
Jesus H Christ… Somebody please turn OFF Chris Lanier… blah, blah and blah… he is like a broken record… Give it a rest would u…Some folks think you are wrong and I personally think you are obsessing over this to the point of well, i will bite my tongue… just move on.. Go rant about LinuxMCE… Your never-ending assault is not helping anyone… It is like someone has taken over your mind and is filling it with non stop complaining… get past it. (oh can you ban me from this site also?) You are acting like that dude who invented AutoCad and when a big corporate entity took over his company, he lost it… Hmmmm… Maybe there is some meaning in that…
@Ian Dixon: I know what you meant, I still can’t believe it. You are probably one of few that use it for this purpose. Microsoft must of had you in mind when they added touch to the Media Center interface.
I think allot of the points Chris raises are valid. There is a whole industry out there regarding getting digital media content on to your TV that totally by-passes the PC and MS have been too slow and really missed the boat with the main stream.
It’s presumably easier to setup, is more reliable and much cheaper, the masses are already embrassing these products, the number of Media Streamers you see these days, these people probably don’t even know MC exists, yet they are happily watching content from the net and LAN on their TV’s.
And if MS can’t sort out all the problems, issues and feature requests we all talk about every day on TGB then it’s not looking good in the long term.
Don’t get me wrong I love Media Center but MS really need to get a move on and have a massive push to get it going forward and ahead of the game not catching up all the time, or it’s not going to happen for them.
We still have no easy way to get Internet TV content in to Media Center, sure if your in the US there’s the in built Internet TV but from what I’ve heard the content is limited and not so great.
We rely on excellent 3rd party developments like TunerFree MCE, why can’t we watch Hulu in MC for example? Hoping and waiting for some guy who knows how to code MCML to build an add-in for it. MS should be providing the tools and framework to have one MC UI for all these sources of Inernet content which can easily be added by the user and not some random developer creating yet another add-in for X Y Z content.
I’ve only been using MC since Vista, Chris has been using it since the beginning I believe and I already feel like this is being developed way too slowly, can I really see myself still here saying I hope X Y and Z is in Windows 8 MC, when I said the same things about the Windows 7 development!
Media Center in Windows 7 is mainly Vista TV Pack with a few bells and whistles and it’s not going to be enough to save it longer term, which is why it will remain a high-end and enthusiasts platform.
But if it does everything I want it too and I’m not retiring by the time all that actually happens lol then I’ll be happy and have a better system than joe public with his Media Streamer / Smart TV.