i can think of no one more qualified than Dr Flick for answers to questions that have been on my mind lately regarding DLNA and i wonder if Derek has 5 minutes he may like to shed some light on a few things if possible please, the answers may also help others with questions that are the same or similar
1. If i request a Video file to play from my windows7 Pc to my Nokia N95 Phone from the N95 phone why does Windows7 not stream the video file to the phone ? , my understanding was that Windows7 transcoded any or most file formats, if the phone requests a file that is ?? AVI or even Mpg 2 should Windows7 understand that the phone can only playback Mpeg4 and Transcode the file in that format, i wonder if Derek can understand what is happening or not happening, perhaps, due to the N95 being 3 years old the DLNA standard it uses is not fully compliant to the DLNA Windows7 standard Therefore not telling Windows7 that it is only happy with Mpeg4
to brake this down a little i will simplify : i use my N95 to browse my Home Network via Wifi, it sees and connects to my Windows7 Pc and sees my video files but when i request a Video file to play on the device ( N95 ) it simply replys ” selected device does not support this operation ” so perhaps the N95 is not talking to the windows7 Pc in the correct DLNA way ?? …. its all a bit confusing but trying to understand why this is happening would perhaps solve other issues that may arrise in the future with other devices and situations
2. The Device ( N95 ) will happily take streams or data from my Windows7 Pc that are Mpge4 standard, as above i browse my home network , find the Windows7 machine, locate my Mpeg4 video files and then request the file to be played back on the device ( N95 ), this works fine but only after a delay of at least 10 minutes ?? would this be because the Phone is actually not accepting streams but simply copying the file to itself and once it has copied the file into a buffer of some sort, begins playing or is it because Windows7 is just very slow at deciding what to do ?? and perhaps another option which has just sprung to mind, is Windows7 re-transcoding a file that will play fine without Transcoding, i seem to remember reading somewhere that Windows7 does transcode files that sometimes dont require transcoding ??
i do appreciate that Derek is not a Nokia engineer but any insight or thoughts as to why these issues arrise would be greatly apprecited especially as i believe they are DLNA based questions , it would be nice to simply find a file with my Phone and have it play instantly back no matter what file format
I would like to take this opportunity to use your dilemma as more of a troubleshooting example than just looking at potential answers. I find it useful to understand the thought process, so I will provide a condensed summary of my initial thoughts here.
Just to be critical as part of the problem definition phase, I see from your other posts that this actually is a Nokia N95 8GB and not the older N95. Not that it should matter too much for this problem, but it always is important to be specific when defining the variables. I find it useful to provide a link to the specific device to minimize confusion (http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-n95-8gb).
Is this device actually certified to be able to do what you want? To me, it is critical to understand if this actually should work versus “can I spend enough time playing with it to find a way to make it appear to work?” As an integrator, you can get lost in the latter and really lose money by committing to something that may not be possible. Upon initial investigation, it appears that this device is certified and should work (at least from a marketing and press perspective):
“Nokia Home Media Solution – The Nokia Connected Home is a set of Home Media applications and services allowing Nokia mobile users to enjoy their digital music, photos and videos through TV and stereos wirelessly at home. All you need is a compatible Nokia Nseries multimedia device, a wireless network solution and a compatible PC or a supported UPnP/DLNA media renderer or server, such as a television, home stereo system or a gaming console. The Nokia Home Media solution is now available on millions of Nseries devices, including the Nokia N96 and Nokia N95 8GB. (http://www.dlna.org/news/pr/view?item_key=305b9820a7f8f1b0005884dc9be610e5b4676480).”
If you dive in a little further and check the list of certified DLNA devices at the DLNA.org site, you will see that both the N95 and the N95 8GB are listed (N95 8GB http://certification.dlna.org/certs/REG03881382(1).pdf and the N95 http://certification.dlna.org/certs/REG65608331.pdf). However, it starts to get confusing. If you look closely at these documents, you will see that both devices only are certified as an M-DMS device class (Mobile-Digital Media Server). That makes me question if these actually will work as a Digital Media Renderer (DMR), an M-DMR, or possibly more specifically a Mobile Digital Media Downloader (M-DMD). I am not saying that they will not, but I cannot find a certification that says it has been tested and has passed. According to the Nokia web site listed above, there is no mention of a DLNA logo (they only state that it works with UPnP technologies). Additionally, note the Windows 7 requires DLNA version 1.5, which probably is newer than at least the original firmware on that phone. Moreover, the certification only specifies that it has passed as an MP3 Audio profile. This makes me question it even more. This goes back to the concept I continuously harp on throughout our show – make sure you are delivering a “known good configuration.” Everything else you do for your clients should be T & M with no guarantees.
Now more to your problem. It is not clear exactly what types of files you are trying to stream. Does it do it for a variety of file formats or only a particular type (WMV, MPG, MPEG. WTV, AVI, MPEG-4, H.264, TS, etc.)? Do they stream immediately to another renderer like a notebook running Windows Media Player 11 or 12? Do they stream from another device when clicking on them via Windows Explorer (remember that the streaming process works differently based upon how you are accessing the files)? When you look at the advanced properties of the files, in what resolution and bit rate are they encoded? Does this change how it operates? Have you found anything that does work as a starting point?
Then there is the real troubleshooting part. There always is the issue of the wireless performance, but we will leave that out for now. Have you looked at the device through something like FDBrowser? Does that give you any indication of the capabilities of the device? Have you looked at the communications between the devices via something like the Intel Tools for UPnP Technologies we mentioned previously (Device Spy or Device Sniffer)? Have you determined what actually is going on during those 10 minutes? Have you determined if the PC is transcoding on the fly and trying to stream it, is it transcoding it and copying it to the device, or is it simply copying the file to the device for transcoding locally? What tools on the PC side would help you determine this?
Sorry I did not provide a simple answer (if there actually is one), but I thought I would take the opportunity to use this as a way for all of us to learn how we might go about finding a solution (if there actually is one). These questions are a starting point. Please let us know what you find and provide us with more specific details so we can move to the next phase of isolating the root of the problem.
Thank you Derick for taking the time to look at this in depth, it is much appreciated
And i am pretty sure that more than one or two readers will be scratching there heads when reading this as am i to an extent, even after listening to all of your Podcats with Ian on DLNA and UPnP
some ansers to questions you have possed
when the Phone requests a Video file to be played from the windows7 machine, the phone reports an onscreen dialogue ” selected device does not support this operation ” … this happens on all video formats regardless of resolution/size/bit rate/encoder method except MP4 which the phone supports natively and is happy to playback after a duration
Testing is limited
FDBrowser is part of an SDK which i do not have as i am not a developer or installer i have never needed it before and the Intel programes such as Device spy seem to be no longer available from Intel
what i can see happening with limited tools on my desktop, when a MP4 file is requested processor useage doubles and my network upload and download speeds accelerate greatly , oddly the download speed is more than double the upload speed when an MP4 is requested ??? i would have thought it would be the other way round , this seems to indicate the phone is actually sending something to the Pc and then recieving data back but at a slower rate
working on a hunch rather than actuall reliable data i would assume that the phone is incappable of describing to the windows7 machine what it actually needs ( MP4 ) this would seem to ring true with your findings from above, it simply lacks the current DLNA standard of request and acqusition
i have no real issues with MP3 which initially take 5 or 6 seconds to begin and then stream continuous to the phone from the windows7 machine when requested from the phone
i cannot ” Play to ” the phone , it does not appear as an available device , other devices appear but the phone is not available as an option
interestingly, i can use the phone to browse my home network, find my Vista Machine , browse to video files on the Vista machine and then when media player is open on the windows7 machine , request the file to be played on the windows7 machine in media player , sadly though not in Media Center , although this is to be expected as Media Center is not part of ” Play to ” perhaps in the future it will be, the phone is this circumstance seems to be more than capable of asking other devices to perform actions , this works on all file formats , mp3 avi wmv mp4 and i would expect any other format to play happily in this regard as it seems happy to read files and ask them to play on other devices
my wireless performance is good, stable and fast , my rooter/router ( grin ) is set to MAC adress security only , if it is in the list in the router it is allowed if it is not in the list it is blocked, though again not being a huge networking guru i am not sure if that can impact on overall speed , the router is a modern Linksys WAG200G wired/wireless type and Upnp is odviously activated
and just for good measure the N95 8Gb as you pointed out and my apologys for not describing in more detail is using the latest firmware
presently i cannot add any more info as i am unsure as what more i can add , with the lack of test equipment and software i am limited to adding more details except for my general findings
i do have another Nokia arriving this week , the 5800 , it will be interesting to see what differences that brings and whether its DLNA certification is different
again thank you Derick for your time and Ian for allowing this conversation
i will just add an update , after much digging and finding .net 1.1 and installing i now have the Intel UPnP Device spy program up and running Derick , what information do you require from this program , there seems to be a fair bit 🙂
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Mike,
I would like to take this opportunity to use your dilemma as more of a troubleshooting example than just looking at potential answers. I find it useful to understand the thought process, so I will provide a condensed summary of my initial thoughts here.
Just to be critical as part of the problem definition phase, I see from your other posts that this actually is a Nokia N95 8GB and not the older N95. Not that it should matter too much for this problem, but it always is important to be specific when defining the variables. I find it useful to provide a link to the specific device to minimize confusion (http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-n95-8gb).
Is this device actually certified to be able to do what you want? To me, it is critical to understand if this actually should work versus “can I spend enough time playing with it to find a way to make it appear to work?” As an integrator, you can get lost in the latter and really lose money by committing to something that may not be possible. Upon initial investigation, it appears that this device is certified and should work (at least from a marketing and press perspective):
“Nokia Home Media Solution – The Nokia Connected Home is a set of Home Media applications and services allowing Nokia mobile users to enjoy their digital music, photos and videos through TV and stereos wirelessly at home. All you need is a compatible Nokia Nseries multimedia device, a wireless network solution and a compatible PC or a supported UPnP/DLNA media renderer or server, such as a television, home stereo system or a gaming console. The Nokia Home Media solution is now available on millions of Nseries devices, including the Nokia N96 and Nokia N95 8GB. (http://www.dlna.org/news/pr/view?item_key=305b9820a7f8f1b0005884dc9be610e5b4676480).”
If you dive in a little further and check the list of certified DLNA devices at the DLNA.org site, you will see that both the N95 and the N95 8GB are listed (N95 8GB http://certification.dlna.org/certs/REG03881382(1).pdf and the N95 http://certification.dlna.org/certs/REG65608331.pdf). However, it starts to get confusing. If you look closely at these documents, you will see that both devices only are certified as an M-DMS device class (Mobile-Digital Media Server). That makes me question if these actually will work as a Digital Media Renderer (DMR), an M-DMR, or possibly more specifically a Mobile Digital Media Downloader (M-DMD). I am not saying that they will not, but I cannot find a certification that says it has been tested and has passed. According to the Nokia web site listed above, there is no mention of a DLNA logo (they only state that it works with UPnP technologies). Additionally, note the Windows 7 requires DLNA version 1.5, which probably is newer than at least the original firmware on that phone. Moreover, the certification only specifies that it has passed as an MP3 Audio profile. This makes me question it even more. This goes back to the concept I continuously harp on throughout our show – make sure you are delivering a “known good configuration.” Everything else you do for your clients should be T & M with no guarantees.
Now more to your problem. It is not clear exactly what types of files you are trying to stream. Does it do it for a variety of file formats or only a particular type (WMV, MPG, MPEG. WTV, AVI, MPEG-4, H.264, TS, etc.)? Do they stream immediately to another renderer like a notebook running Windows Media Player 11 or 12? Do they stream from another device when clicking on them via Windows Explorer (remember that the streaming process works differently based upon how you are accessing the files)? When you look at the advanced properties of the files, in what resolution and bit rate are they encoded? Does this change how it operates? Have you found anything that does work as a starting point?
Then there is the real troubleshooting part. There always is the issue of the wireless performance, but we will leave that out for now. Have you looked at the device through something like FDBrowser? Does that give you any indication of the capabilities of the device? Have you looked at the communications between the devices via something like the Intel Tools for UPnP Technologies we mentioned previously (Device Spy or Device Sniffer)? Have you determined what actually is going on during those 10 minutes? Have you determined if the PC is transcoding on the fly and trying to stream it, is it transcoding it and copying it to the device, or is it simply copying the file to the device for transcoding locally? What tools on the PC side would help you determine this?
Sorry I did not provide a simple answer (if there actually is one), but I thought I would take the opportunity to use this as a way for all of us to learn how we might go about finding a solution (if there actually is one). These questions are a starting point. Please let us know what you find and provide us with more specific details so we can move to the next phase of isolating the root of the problem.
=D-
Thank you Derick for taking the time to look at this in depth, it is much appreciated
And i am pretty sure that more than one or two readers will be scratching there heads when reading this as am i to an extent, even after listening to all of your Podcats with Ian on DLNA and UPnP
some ansers to questions you have possed
when the Phone requests a Video file to be played from the windows7 machine, the phone reports an onscreen dialogue ” selected device does not support this operation ” … this happens on all video formats regardless of resolution/size/bit rate/encoder method except MP4 which the phone supports natively and is happy to playback after a duration
Testing is limited
FDBrowser is part of an SDK which i do not have as i am not a developer or installer i have never needed it before and the Intel programes such as Device spy seem to be no longer available from Intel
what i can see happening with limited tools on my desktop, when a MP4 file is requested processor useage doubles and my network upload and download speeds accelerate greatly , oddly the download speed is more than double the upload speed when an MP4 is requested ??? i would have thought it would be the other way round , this seems to indicate the phone is actually sending something to the Pc and then recieving data back but at a slower rate
working on a hunch rather than actuall reliable data i would assume that the phone is incappable of describing to the windows7 machine what it actually needs ( MP4 ) this would seem to ring true with your findings from above, it simply lacks the current DLNA standard of request and acqusition
i have no real issues with MP3 which initially take 5 or 6 seconds to begin and then stream continuous to the phone from the windows7 machine when requested from the phone
i cannot ” Play to ” the phone , it does not appear as an available device , other devices appear but the phone is not available as an option
interestingly, i can use the phone to browse my home network, find my Vista Machine , browse to video files on the Vista machine and then when media player is open on the windows7 machine , request the file to be played on the windows7 machine in media player , sadly though not in Media Center , although this is to be expected as Media Center is not part of ” Play to ” perhaps in the future it will be, the phone is this circumstance seems to be more than capable of asking other devices to perform actions , this works on all file formats , mp3 avi wmv mp4 and i would expect any other format to play happily in this regard as it seems happy to read files and ask them to play on other devices
my wireless performance is good, stable and fast , my rooter/router ( grin ) is set to MAC adress security only , if it is in the list in the router it is allowed if it is not in the list it is blocked, though again not being a huge networking guru i am not sure if that can impact on overall speed , the router is a modern Linksys WAG200G wired/wireless type and Upnp is odviously activated
and just for good measure the N95 8Gb as you pointed out and my apologys for not describing in more detail is using the latest firmware
presently i cannot add any more info as i am unsure as what more i can add , with the lack of test equipment and software i am limited to adding more details except for my general findings
i do have another Nokia arriving this week , the 5800 , it will be interesting to see what differences that brings and whether its DLNA certification is different
again thank you Derick for your time and Ian for allowing this conversation
Regards Mike
i will just add an update , after much digging and finding .net 1.1 and installing i now have the Intel UPnP Device spy program up and running Derick , what information do you require from this program , there seems to be a fair bit 🙂
Unfortunately, I do not see the 5800 as a certified DLNA device either.
=D-
the 5800 was not good Derick and is awaiting collection for return